Warrior Warcry Testing/Thoughts

[Cyrus]

Well, take it back to v2 days, when Warrior and Sorcer were sub-classes for Mercenaries to go Seyan, OR stay a bit weaker then main classes are and was at that time. Making them stronger, means you could erase both warr and sorc classes, leave AH, AT, Seyan and Necro, as they are already filling the gaps those two sub-classes are missing.
So if anything was to change, maybe Sorcer should be nerfed instead, to line up with a warrior as the sub-class they are meant to be? And for your information, most classes need SS'ed or crafted gears to hit max on skills wanted. Don't see the problem for warriors doing the same? And for an AT to solo pent top UW, it need either SS'ed/crafted or prison gear, for a decent pent speed. Why is it so hard for warriors to do that? And my AH still uses gears to get max boosts and enough resist to go places, still having to swap around gears?

-Sigtyr

Ugh the old "Mercs are meant to go Seyan" spiel. Nobody makes a Merc to go Seyan/Necro/Ninja, because they're the hardest race to do it with. They even had to add special items that drop in the necro trial just for Mercs because they borderline can't even complete it without them.

And I'm not talking about needing to use SS to "hit max on skills", I'm talking about needing to use SS to even use your skills at all. Tell me which one of your arch skills you can't even land in pents without SS gearr? I'm not talking about maxing out mods or getting resistance up with gear to go places... Every other race that gets an arch skill gets it with a base value in line with their higher max. How silly would it be if Ninja's got 75 base poison? Or Necro's got 75 dual wield? I just don't understand the logic behind why the Warrior of all races needs to get an arch skill that's less than 105? Ninja's arch skills are all 120, Necro's are 105, Sorc 105, Temp/AH 120, why can't Warrior be 105? If the reason is because they can use SS gear, well so can everyone else so should everyone's arch skills max at 75 and we can all just use SS sets for the skills we want to use? (obviously not)

So I appreciate the debate Sig, but I don't want us to get off topic bringing up a bunch of other balance issues. What's the reason Warriors shouldn't have 105 base Warcry with 75 base rest? I can understand if it was Curse2 we were talking about (I never thought C2 was an appropriate arch skill for a Warrior in the first place), but the skill debuff of War-curse doesn't scale with Warcry mod, so it's not like they're going to be curse-crippling anyone with it having a higher base.

[Marky]

For your info: I went necro on a sorc, 1st attempt I was caught by surprise, second attempt was a success. And I have seen Ratheart go on a warrior without issues.
Going ninja can be done quite well with stun, which sorc and warrior have. Isn't a bad choice.

Ninja stun, maxed out, fully geared (prison, amulet of memories and so on), on a dpot, lands now and then in UW pents. Maybe 25% lands, maybe less, the others are lost focus.

[Lordlava]

Would creating 2 x +12 WC rings help the WC to land?
I believe you can do it in RD2 now.
Can you imagine +24 WC that does not rot.

Also the current WC level for Warriors was set as a trial.
It is always easier to increase it than to decrease it from managing the Rage point of view.

There has only been feedback from One Warrior on the level and it has been mostly positive but probably a bit under powered at the top end (if I summarised that correctly).
The feedback from other Warrior shouters would be helpful (unless no one else plays a Warrior class).

[Sigtyr]

I do have a Warrior, and I can say that even at MaGen rank, that C2 stinks hard, due to the cost of casting it, and the low max base on it. For having a good effect of it, I would have to make some SS'ed gears that has C2 boosts, and also some spell set with alot to Bless for more mod boost to it, so it can hit at all.
Warriors DO need to make gears, if not they will just stay as a Mercenarie with ability to wear a bit better armor and 2 swords. And for the RD2 rings, I think they actually goes to Level 14. That's 28 total unactive rings and 56 if you activate em.
Also, I've been with Mayhem's warrior a few runs to Lich, Barb king, Memory Lane, Cohors and so on. I have to say that the warcry is pretty strong, even for that low base it has.

-Sigtyr

[Cyrus]

For your info: I went necro on a sorc, 1st attempt I was caught by surprise, second attempt was a success. And I have seen Ratheart go on a warrior without issues.
Going ninja can be done quite well with stun, which sorc and warrior have. Isn't a bad choice.

Ninja stun, maxed out, fully geared (prison, amulet of memories and so on), on a dpot, lands now and then in UW pents. Maybe 25% lands, maybe less, the others are lost focus.

Right, and you did so AFTER the items were added. I was the very first Warrior to go Necro, before it was made easier and it basically came down to RNG depending how many crits I got and whether I lost focus on heals. And regardless I never said it was impossible, but it is more difficult compared to any other maxed out race.

As for Ninja stun that’s apples to oranges. Stun isn’t an arch skill for a ninja. Warrior can barely land their stun either without a spell set. I’m talking strictly arch skills here.

[Mayhem]

Would creating 2 x +12 WC rings help the WC to land?
I believe you can do it in RD2 now. Laughing
Can you imagine +24 WC that does not rot.

This must be the worst advice ever lol... have you ever been to rd2? To make those 2 rings you'll prolly end up having to kill 1000+ npc's in there to get those rings. Rd2 is useless in its current form.. but thats a whole other discussion

I dont have problems with raising the base warcry for warriors cause some seem to have problems with it. My Rb1 warrior with full spellset is probably not the best reference.

Greetings

[Sigtyr]

Agree on that Rd2 part.
But that be another post later as you said.
And what do your RB1 Warrior need to warcry stromger monsters? Can it do it in just Dragon Gear? I don't know, as I've only healed/cursed and spelled during battles, and only see that Warcry lands on bosses, and names of people who Warcry.

-Sigtyr

[Ketchup]

I leave for a couple months and come back to warriors being able to get warcry, thats super spicy! As a player thats played a couple warriors already ( necro'd a knight warr and currently have a baron and lt col warr ;p) and all other races except ninja, I can say that warriors indeed do need a bit of love, being outclassed in their niche role of hybrid fighter, while having nothing really of their own. I gotta agree with Cyrus about how warriors shouldnt *NEED* SS gears just to use its arch skill. No other race needs to do that, regardless of what ones we look at. Ive always thought that C2 was a bit of a weird arch skill to get as it isnt fighter orriented, but comparing it to WC(whether its 75 base or 105) it is still the superior choice even at 60 base. Lets say for example I have a warrior in AT and i am able to use my c2 with SS or drugs or whatever it may be, that c2 debuff is lowering the stats of all enemies by a considerable amount (25+), AND allowing me to use my trash tier base curse and stun now, further increasing fighting potential. Looking at the numbers that were posted above for WC that -9 to stats in all likelyhood isnt going to enable the use of curse or stun anymore at all, and being a far weaker debuff that doesnt scale at all with mod. As was stated, the c1/c2 stacking effects become more powerful as mod is gained so in addition to lowering all the skelles stats they can be further reduced now because they have low enough res for curse to now work. Even with trash tier curse thats another good chunk of stats removed (id have to log and fool around in AT for a while to see but for ease of example say both combined reduce 40+ points to their stats) compare that to the -9 to stats and its pretty clear which skill should be used... The mana cost is not ideal, and being able to actually use endurance for something would be amazing, but with all the pots in this game in the end the power is what counts not the mana. Sure WC has the stun factor but if im using c2 instead i can just choose to use the stun ability which i already have so the trade off is quite unappealing, to me at least. This is a step in the right direction but to me it seems like id still rather keep C2 ;p. Maybe if warriors just got warcry in addition to c2, but it doesnt make sense to lose out on all that power just cause it costs mana. Increasing the base that warrs get for WC wont make it any better either if mod doesnt scale the curse portion of WC, as even using SS gears for WC makes it less powerful than using equivalent C2 SS gears that actually make the debuff stronger (both for c2 and the resulting c1 after their imm is lowered) Just my 2 cents anyways. =)

[Cyrus]

I leave for a couple months and come back to warriors being able to get warcry, thats super spicy! As a player thats played a couple warriors already ( necro'd a knight warr and currently have a baron and lt col warr ;p) and all other races except ninja, I can say that warriors indeed do need a bit of love, being outclassed in their niche role of hybrid fighter, while having nothing really of their own. I gotta agree with Cyrus about how warriors shouldnt *NEED* SS gears just to use its arch skill. No other race needs to do that, regardless of what ones we look at. Ive always thought that C2 was a bit of a weird arch skill to get as it isnt fighter orriented, but comparing it to WC(whether its 75 base or 105) it is still the superior choice even at 60 base. Lets say for example I have a warrior in AT and i am able to use my c2 with SS or drugs or whatever it may be, that c2 debuff is lowering the stats of all enemies by a considerable amount (25+), AND allowing me to use my trash tier base curse and stun now, further increasing fighting potential. Looking at the numbers that were posted above for WC that -9 to stats in all likelyhood isnt going to enable the use of curse or stun anymore at all, and being a far weaker debuff that doesnt scale at all with mod. As was stated, the c1/c2 stacking effects become more powerful as mod is gained so in addition to lowering all the skelles stats they can be further reduced now because they have low enough res for curse to now work. Even with trash tier curse thats another good chunk of stats removed (id have to log and fool around in AT for a while to see but for ease of example say both combined reduce 40+ points to their stats) compare that to the -9 to stats and its pretty clear which skill should be used... The mana cost is not ideal, and being able to actually use endurance for something would be amazing, but with all the pots in this game in the end the power is what counts not the mana. Sure WC has the stun factor but if im using c2 instead i can just choose to use the stun ability which i already have so the trade off is quite unappealing, to me at least. This is a step in the right direction but to me it seems like id still rather keep C2 ;p. Maybe if warriors just got warcry in addition to c2, but it doesnt make sense to lose out on all that power just cause it costs mana. Increasing the base that warrs get for WC wont make it any better either if mod doesnt scale the curse portion of WC, as even using SS gears for WC makes it less powerful than using equivalent C2 SS gears that actually make the debuff stronger (both for c2 and the resulting c1 after their imm is lowered) Just my 2 cents anyways. =)

Yeah I agree, that's why I'm so blown away at everyone being so insistent on WC not being 105 base. Even at 105 it's still not nearly as powerful as C2. Seems like the entire reason is because they don't want Warriors having an arch skill that goes to 105 which I just don't understand...

[Firelance]

Lava, I've been meaning to put my two cents in.

I've got a now MajGen warrior, and I've had Warcry since Major.

My sentiments echo what Cyrus has been saying. My Warcry is only 55 base, it works, it doesn't allow me to trivialize content.. but it makes my Warrior enjoyable. I had Curse 2 prior to Warcry, only for the free 40k exp from the quest. I had no intention of using it. Warcry, on the other hand, makes penting fun (whether stealth or not), makes AT easier initially (now that I outright resist the stuns, doesn't really make a difference). The static reduction of -9 on War-Curse and -18 for the petrified Warcries is okay.. But in no way comparable to Curse or Curse 2. People need to understand Warcry is a go/no-go skill like Surround Hit and Surround Hit 2. It either works, or it doesn't, Higher mod (with 105 base) does not even remotely suggest that the skill will be broken on warriors (especially when it isn't considered broken or even great on templars.) While War-Curse isnt affected by Immunity.. Neither is Ninja Crit-Curse, and that can scale as high as 110 power if I remember correctly.

But I'll repeat myself, Warcry has made my warrior fun. Being able to have an endurance-based skill allows me to actually use my curse now, instead of juggling poor mana maintenance due to 15 meditate. I would also suggest bumping rest up back to where it was, as like other classes with meditate and heavy mana skills.. They're allowed to meditate at a high rate to continue to use of their skills - Warriors shouldn't be any different.

-------------------------------------------------------

As far as the comments about Warriors shouldn't be stronger than they are... It's 2021. This game has aged well past its prime. We need to move towards QoL changes like we've seen in the past, and things that extend the enjoyment. Keeping the mindset of Sorcerers and Warriors being a sub-class that shouldn't be able to enjoy endgame content as fun as everyone else is a 20-year-old mindset that shouldn't exist anymore. Also, the stronger the characters become, the more difficult content can be created such as more encounters similiar to the lich or barbarian king. If we can move away from death traps being the difficulty curve, and into content that requires the player to utilize character skills to ensure victory.. Makes more a better game in the end.

[Mayhem]

So I've been raising warcry on my warrior.
Why is the update cost the same as seyan?
Warcry is 100 base now and costs 150k to update... To max it to 120(rb2) it will require almost 4 million xp
Was this intended or a mistake?

Greetings